tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post5883530782900723572..comments2023-06-06T05:54:52.597-07:00Comments on aporia: Hidden's Faith: STAGGERING: Aporia's Rebirth (Prop 8)Hiddenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08348504994762507495noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post-46243663509800538822008-10-13T19:38:00.000-07:002008-10-13T19:38:00.000-07:00BALE: Thanks for identifying with me, and taking t...BALE: Thanks for identifying with me, and taking the time to read my thoughts. I wish that I could stop struggling on this matter...it's driving me crazy.<BR/><BR/>SCOTT: ;) I know who you are. I keep up on your blog just as much (or more) as you do on mine. But thanks for the clarification for everyone else. And the interesting dream-speech. Now if only if could be so? But would that work? I read your post about coming out in church and agree with your commenters that sacrament isn't the place, but it could be done elsewhere. Although I don't know if all the ramifications of such action are known. But again, you have done nothing and who you are DOES NOT make you evil, though that's not really the way it's being painted lately, now is it?Hiddenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348504994762507495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post-91822889915443782982008-10-12T21:16:00.000-07:002008-10-12T21:16:00.000-07:00Few can fathom how terrible our resolve must be in...<I>Few can fathom how terrible our resolve must be in order to press forward with faith and endure to the end.</I><BR/><BR/>I was thinking about this this morning... I've had the Prop 8 madness at some level or another of my consciousness more or less constantly for several days now, and with the recent broadcast (that went to Utah County in addition to CA and other parts of the country) and the accompanying articles and editorials in the Deseret News and Tribune, I've just assumed that everyone else has been at least peripherally aware of it for the last few days as well.<BR/><BR/>So I was dreading going to church today, certain that there would be mention in testimony meeting or in Sunday School or Elders' Quorum lessons about those evil gays and their family-destroying desire to get married.<BR/><BR/>My mind ran away with me in the shower and I had a pretty clear waking dream of sitting in Elders' Quorum and hearing some comment along those lines, and boldly speaking up, something along the lines of:<BR/><BR/>"You cannot speak about 'those people' [in my daydream he had referred to gays as 'those people'] in such disparaging terms. You have no idea what is in their hearts or in their heads, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that most of them are good people who only want the same things that you want: to love and be loved in the way that is most natural to them.<BR/><BR/>"I know that desire because I am one of 'those people'. I have chosen to marry and stay faithful to my wife, but not a day goes by that I don't wonder what I might be missing. I will never be free of the desire to love and be loved by a man--I'm not talking about sex here, but the intimate emotional love that you share with your wives. I belong to a church that teaches that to follow my heart would be sinful. I have made my decision, but I cannot find fault with those who have chosen differently."<BR/><BR/>... In my dream they all sat there shell-shocked for a bit, and then the instructor tried to pick up the pieces of his lesson and I finished my shower.<BR/><BR/>Church turned out to be completely uneventful, so I'll have to save my speech for another day. Most likely I'll never actually have the guts to use it in real life, but I do wish there was some way to help people understand the conflict.<BR/><BR/>(Oh... by the way, I'm Dichotomy. Or I was. I celebrated "National Coming Out Day" by dropping the alias.)Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15332275934258698026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post-72963648265243944312008-10-12T16:03:00.000-07:002008-10-12T16:03:00.000-07:00Your post was my fast Sunday feast (as was pinkie-...Your post was my fast Sunday feast (as was pinkie-promised yesterday). I also read your 'resolve' from last October. My current position is very close to where you were a year ago. For the first time in many months I feel fully invested as a latter-day saint. I've not been to the temple for a very long time...at year a least. Now it's time to get my recommend renewed. <BR/><BR/>The insight you received, that there's no place for homosexuals in the Church, is irrefutable. Sympathy for our plight has come as far as it can, in my opinion. <BR/>Dichotomy noted a significant shift in the Church's official position toward homosexuality. By distinguishing our natural feelings from the condemned behaviors they often lead to the Brethren have removed much of the pervert stigma attached to gays. It has been vital for the self-worth of countless Mohos, myself included. However, the change is not profound enough to resolve the internal conflict we face every waking (and dreaming) moment. <BR/><BR/>Our Moho Gospel perspective is remarkably esoteric. Few can fathom how terrible our resolve must be in order to press forward with faith and endure to the end. The straight saints simply cannot comprehend it. They have to simply not think about it...and if I'm going to survive this probation neither can I. I must somehow slip back into denial, like my parents have done, and just pretend I'm straight, knowing full well I'm not...ignoring the obstacles hedging my way to Family and Eternal Life.<BR/><BR/>When we first met a few months back, I was trying to find a happy medium between Gospel and Gayness, (as you once did). It was primarily a rational endeavor. Countless hypothetical scenarios that allowed fulfillment of some if not most of my emotional and physical needs of intimacy (while maintaining activity in the Church) all ended in alienation and personal ruin.<BR/><BR/>I don't have any answers, my friend, but I can identify with many of your horrible realizations.balehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01617256014045994395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post-36692033954324101992008-10-09T20:24:00.000-07:002008-10-09T20:24:00.000-07:00DICHO: Thanks for your long response! I loved read...DICHO: Thanks for your long response! I loved reading it!<BR/><BR/><I>In reading your post it sounds like perhaps you haven't either. I interpret my feelings as a confirmation from God that supporting the proposition would be the wrong thing to do (not that it makes much difference in my case, since I live in Utah).</I> <BR/><BR/>Indeed. I'm adamantly ache to oppose Prop 8 because I know how much hurt its causing. <BR/><BR/>And it seems that it's just opened up the avenues for all church members to actively perpetuate homophobia. <BR/><BR/>And don't you worry, I don't live in California anymore, so my vote doesn't count either :P<BR/><BR/>The longer it goes, the more in turmoil I am over it. I had this experience, felt these things, but look at all the lies and the hurt, and then I don't know anymore. <BR/><BR/>Maybe all this IS wrong and I have deceived myself. I hate choices like this.Hiddenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348504994762507495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2283886824195106155.post-84841729613568624872008-10-09T10:08:00.000-07:002008-10-09T10:08:00.000-07:00I hope that a LONG comment to a long post is okay....I hope that a <EM>LONG</EM> comment to a long post is okay. :)<BR/><BR/>I'll start by saying that I have the utmost respect for your feelings and your faith, and I certainly don't believe that you are deserving of any "condemnation" for expressing your struggle or its conclusion, even if I don't necessarily agree with the end result.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to share some of the thoughts that I have had on family, and Eternal Life, and the Proclamation, and God's Plan, that have allowed me to reach a different conclusion than yours.<BR/><BR/>The foundation of the belief that marriage must be between a man and a woman is, as you pointed out, the doctrine of Eternal Life, or Eternal Increase, or Exaltation. Exaltation, as we understand it, means to become like God in every respect--to become gods ourselves, and overseers of our own creations; to enjoy "eternal increase" through the creation of our own spirit children. That much of the Plan is known to us through scripture and through the words of Latter-day prophets.<BR/><BR/>The details, though, are hidden from us, and anything else we think we know is simply speculation. We assume that the creation of spirit children is significantly similar to the creation of bodies for God's spirit children here on earth. That is, we assume that it requires both a male and a female. Although it is seldom discussed, I would hazard that many members of the Church, if they think about it at all, even go so far as to assume that the process is simply a Celestial version of sexual procreation (and in fact the Church's detractors occasionally criticize us for our belief that in the hereafter our women will be "eternally pregnant"). In reality, however, I know of no scriptural or prophetic statement to support any of this speculation, and in fact there are even statements from leaders of the Church that discourage us from speculating on the existence of a Heavenly Mother.<BR/><BR/>We believe that there is further support for the idea that only a male-female marriage has the potential to be an eternal one in <I>The Family: A Proclamation to the World</I>. I assumed the same thing, and when I came to terms with my own sexuality I came to consider that document an irritant and a thorn in my side. I tried to deny that it was inspired or to convince myself that its authors were mistaken or misled.<BR/><BR/>But then one day I sat down and actually studied it, and I realized that it didn't say what I thought it said.<BR/><BR/><I>We ... solemly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God...</I><BR/>There is no exclusivity clause here. There is no "only". I might say that Elder Holland (to pick an apostle at random) is "ordained of God", but in doing so I am in no way implying that the other eleven apostles are not.<BR/><BR/><I>Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.</I><BR/>This one might pose a problem for the transgendered subset of the GLBT world, though I can think of a possible interpretation that would not. Applying it to myself, however, is no problem, because I have no problem believing that I was male in the pre-existence, that I'm male here on earth, and that I'll be male through eternity. I am a man who is attracted to men.<BR/><BR/><I>The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife.</I><BR/>Obviously the husband-wife relationship is an important one. It's vital to the Plan because only a male-female partnership can procreate, and there are billions of Heavenly Father's spirit children waiting for bodies. It makes perfect sense that God would start off with a man and a woman, and that He would command them to multiply and replenish. But to conclude that such a relationship is the only valid one (without any further corroborating statement or evidence) is a stretch.<BR/><BR/><I>...God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.</I><BR/>This can easily be seen as a prohibition of homosexual intercourse. As someone who is married to a woman and does not intend to act on his homosexual attractions, I am willing to concede that this may indeed be the case. But one could also choose to believe that the "powers of procreation" require both a sperm and an egg and argue that when one is missing and procreation is impossible one is no longer "employing" those "powers of procreation". (Perhaps this is sophistry and I'm not saying that I believe it, but I'm not willing to condemn those who might).<BR/><BR/><I>Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan</I><BR/>If the powers of procreation are only to be used in a marriage between man and woman, and procreation is necessary for the Plan to proceed, then obviously marriage between man and woman is essential. But again, there's no exclusivity. Just because one thing is essential doesn't mean everything that's similar is prohibited.<BR/><BR/>There are other bits and pieces that could be interpreted similarly, but to repeat them all would be redundant. Suffice it to say that after actually <I>reading</I> the <I>Proclamation</I> I was no longer so anxious to throw it away, and I was much more comfortable believing that perhaps there was a place for homosexuals in God's plan after all.<BR/><BR/>I've got a pretty good imagination, and I enjoy speculating and wondering about the "many great and important things" that "We believe ... that He will yet reveal...".<BR/><BR/>What if the creation of spirit children is not patterned after sexual procreation, and in fact does not require both a male and a female? There's actually evidence that within a few years we humble mortals will have perfected same-sex procreation (using either two sperm cells or two egg cells). Six thousand years ago Elohim, Jehovah and Michael (all male) created Adam, and then Elohim and Jehovah created Eve from Adam's rib. It's not too dififcult to believe that an omnipotent God (or a pair of gods, be they male-female, male-male, or female-female) could create a spirit child.<BR/> <BR/>We have the words of Latter-day prophets and apostles telling us that homosexuality is wrong and that same-sex marriage is contrary to the plan. But are they speaking for God, or are they speaking their own feelings and beliefs?<BR/><BR/>One of the most difficult challenges I faced in coming to terms with being gay was reconciling what I had been taught in the past about homosexuality and what the Church currently teaches.<BR/><BR/>President Kimball, who was "my prophet" all through primary, taught that homosexuality was a choice, that it was vile and evil (he didn't distinguish between homosexual feelings and homosexual behavior), and that one could make the feelings and attractions go away with sufficient prayer, faith, and reliance on the Atonement. Other Church leaders of the same era made very similar statements.<BR/><BR/>When I finally became willing to consider that I might be gay, I discovered to my surprise that the Church now teaches that homosexual attractions are not evil, but that acting on them is; that "we don't know" what causes homosexuality (with an implied admission that it is probably not something that most gay people choose); and that those who "suffer from same-sex attraction" may never be free of those feelings in this life.<BR/><BR/>My own experience and feeling and the promptings of the Spirit told me that I was not (am not) evil, that I had not chosen to be this way, and that I did not need to attempt to change who I am because Heavenly Father accepts me as myself.<BR/><BR/>My faith was in turmoil. I had always believed the prophets and apostles to be infallible, yet I now had evidence that a prophet of God had made statements that not only seemed contrary to my own experience and feeling but that were also contradicted by statements from later Church leaders! The only possible answer to the dilemma that I faced was that the prophets and apostles did not always speak the truth--that at least some of what they said came from their own personal feelings, experiences, biases and prejudices.<BR/><BR/>Since I came to that realization I have made it a point to pray for guidance on any point of doctrine that I might have any question on. In most cases, the answer came before I even asked the question: "you already know that that one is true." I do have a testimony of the Gospel and of the Church, and I do believe that our leaders are men of God, capable of receiving revelation and inspiration as they lead His Church. But I also recognize now that they aren't infallible as I once believed--that they are capable of making poor decisions when they allow their judgement to be clouded by personal bias and fear.<BR/><BR/>And after having prayed and pondered and prayed some more, that is what I believe is behind the push to support Prop 8. The arguments in favor of the proposition are not rational. The Church's involvement is harmful to its many gay members, as well as to the families who are embroiled in conflict and contention as some members are for and some against. Passage of the proposition will keep gay couple from forming stable families that would ultimately strengthen society in all of the ways that the <I>Proclamation</I> was originally intended to encourage. The only possibly valid supporting argument for Prop 8 is that God wants it to pass, but I cannot believe that God puts so much importance on the word "marriage" that He would be willing to condone or encourage the lies, conflicts and controversy that surround the issue.<BR/><BR/>Our leaders are from a generation that finds the thought of homosexuality supremely distateful. Many of them, I'm sure, have the same personal feelings that most people of their generation share, and are allowing these feelings to color their judgment. I wonder, too, if the critisicm and attacks that the Church endured during the Republican primaries while Romney was still in the running have encouraged our leaders to seek greater acceptance among mainstream Christianity--a goal that might be achieved by our participation in the coalition for Prop 8.<BR/><BR/>Whatever the motivation and driving force behind our involvement, I simply have not been able to bring myself to feel good about it. In reading your post it sounds like perhaps you haven't either. I interpret my feelings as a confirmation from God that supporting the proposition would be the wrong thing to do (not that it makes much difference in my case, since I live in Utah). I gather that you have interpreted your feelings as being something of a trial of your faith. Perhaps we're both right. It would certainly have been wrong for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, yet he followed his heart and obeyed the Lord. I hope that you ultimately receive equal blessings for honoring your faith.<BR/><BR/>I hope that I haven't said anything inappropriate of offensive, and I hope that you'll forgive me for the length of this comment. I'll be praying for you (and for all the members in California), that you'll be able to make the correct decision, whatever that may be, and that you'll find peace in doing so.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15332275934258698026noreply@blogger.com